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The Off Topic section is not meant for discussing Cookie Clicker.

Spontaneous Edifice

BigbyBossBigbyBoss Member Posts: 46 ✭✭
"The building selected must be under 400"
So this spell becomes useless when every building has 400?

Comments

  • 5rd105rd10 Member Posts: 3
    edited January 15
    Quite on the contrary it becomes even better when you hit 400 of all, as this becomes one of the best cookie production methods.

    By selling the most expensive building you have down to 399, then spawning a new one in, then do this over and over every time you have enough mana; produces alot of cookies!

    Combined with krumblor's earth shatterer makes this even better.
  • BigbyBossBigbyBoss Member Posts: 46 ✭✭
    5rd10 said:

    Quite on the contrary it becomes even better when you hit 400 of all, as this becomes one of the best cookie production methods.

    By selling the most expensive building you have down to 399, then spawning a new one in, then do this over and over every time you have enough mana; produces alot of cookies!

    Combined with krumblor's earth shatterer makes this even better.

    Ahh.
    It's not what you meant, but from my perspective, that's actually a solid yes.
  • MaddieMaddie Member Posts: 170 ✭✭
    Well, whether it's "yes" or "no" depends on what your goal is.

    If you want to increase your buildings, (and thereby your CPS) then Yes, it is useless after you have 400 of everything.

    If you want to increase your cookies baked, and thereby, your heavenly chips and prestige multipiler, then No, It is very useful after you have 400 of everything. Selling your 400th Chancemaker and getting it back for free helps a whole lot. Here's how:

    * generally, the cookies you get for selling a building increases your bank, but not your "cookies baked". However, when your bank and baked are equal, selling a building increases both of them.

    * your Prestige level is tied to your Baked amount, not your bank (it doesn't go down if you get a Ruin, for example. Your bank does, but your baked doesn't).

    * Once your bank and baked are the same, your prestige points jump every time you sell a building. (Right now, I've got my bank and baked are equal. Each new PP takes about 500 nonillion cookies. Selling my 400th Prism for 50% of its cost nets me 1.6 Duodecillion cookies -- that's 3.2 Million Prestige points each time.

    * Think of it this way. Once you start selling your 400th (personally, I start selling when I have 400 Prisms, rather than waiting for 400 CMs), what you're doing is gaining half (85% if you put Earth Shatterer in one of your aura slots) the cost of a building that you didn't pay anything for. It's like selling the game your neighbor gave you because he didn't like it. You aren't losing money, because you didn't pay anything for it.
  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Member Posts: 779 ✭✭✭
    edited April 10
    I did a little bit of arithmetic with spreadsheet assistance.

    Some notation:

    Pu = unit production of the most expensive building
    Cu = cost of next one of that building
    Cr = cookies baked so far this run
    Cb = cookies at bank
    t = min. time between successive casting of Spontaneous Edifice
    f = fraction of building cost recouped on resale

    Let's assume that Chancemakers are the most expensive building, that we have 400 of them (and more than 400 of everything else), that Cb< Cr and that Chocolate Egg is unlocked.

    The question to be answered is: is it better to adopt the policy of repeatedly selling a Chancemaker then invoke Spontaneous Edifice to get it back, or to leave them alone?

    Every time a CM is sold that represents a loss of Pu in production, or a loss of Pu * t * 1.05 cookies. (The 1.05 comes from the fact buying Chocolate Egg at the end will increase cookies at bank by 5%.)

    On the other hand, the gain is equal to 0.05 times the resale value, because these cookies go into the bank and CE adds 5% at the end. The resale value is f*Cu/1.15, so the gain is f * Cu/1.15 * 0.05.

    Let's put some actual numbers in from my own game:

    Pu = 1.38 nonillion
    Cu = 3.34 duodecillion
    Cb < Cr (by quite a lot)
    t = 2348 seconds (based on information in the Wikia)
    f = 0.5 (i.e. Earth Shatterer is not in effect)

    Plugging these numbers into the formulae gives the following:
    Cost of invoking Spontaneous Edifice = 3.397decillion
    Gain = 1.523 undecillion

    Selling and casting the spell is better by a factor of about 450,000. No contest.

    this 1.523 undecillion will be gained over a period of 2348 seconds, corresponding to am increase in CpS of 648 decillion/sec. This compares with my current total building production of 1.451 decillion/sec.

    The gain will be reduced somewhat by the chance of the spell backfiring, as well as by the fact that most people will not be watching the screen constantly so slightly more time will elapse between castings. It's still no contest.

    There is more:

    (1) Replacing Breath of Milk by Earth Shatterer now (which I would be doing at the end of the run anyway) reduces CpS by a factor of about 1.5. On the other hand it increases the value of f from 0.5 to 0.85, multiplying the effect of SE by 1.7.

    (2) If Cb had been greater than Cr, the formula for the gain becomes f * Cu/1.15 * 1.05, i.e. about 100 times better. Clearly, the sooner you can get to this stage the better. That probably means not buying any more buildings at all, and it may also mean it's worth selling buildings to boost the cookies at bank. I suspect that the best strategy may be to sell everything down now leaving only 400 of EVERY building, then whenever the opportunity arises, sell one chancemaker and get it back with Spontaneous Edifice.

    If anyone can find any holes in the above reasoning, please point them out.


    Post edited by bob_32_116 on
  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Member Posts: 779 ✭✭✭
    The production from Spontaneous Edifice now becomes the largest component of production. I now need to somehow incorporate an estimate of this into my spreadsheet, as this will substantially change things like the selection of the best time to terminate a run.
  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Member Posts: 779 ✭✭✭
    Here's a point worth noting when you get to the stage of selling Chancemakers and using Spontaneous Edifice:

    As has been established, this gives a massive boost to total cookies. On ascension, this will give a corresponding large boost to prestige. For example if I ascended right now, my prestige would almost double.

    Note however that the value of the 400th chancemaker does not change from one run to the next, so the boost from S.E. will not be doubled. All that's doubled is the production from buildings, which is currently only about 1/100 of that from S.E..

    On my next run I will get more cookies from S.E. because higher production will make it possible to buy a few more of everything, reducing the time taken to reach 400 chancemakers. However the output from S.E. once it's being used is not going to be doubled, it is going to be much the same as it is now.

    What does this mean in terms of choosing the best time to ascend? I am still trying to figure out the maths, but I THINK it means that "heaven can wait". That doubling of prestige is very tempting, but it's not as good as it sounds; it's not going to double the total cookies gained in the run, it will only double the cookies actually produced by buildings, a comparatively small amount. Maybe I should push on and let it triple, or more.

    More calculations to do... watch this space.


  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Member Posts: 779 ✭✭✭
    edited April 16
    I just added another calculation to my spreadsheet that I thought was worth sharing:

    Casting spontaneous edifice to get the 400th chancemaker will require a certain number of cookies in the bank (21.5 duodec to be precise). At a certain point I need to decide when to stop buying buildings and just let the cookies accumulate. Of course I can always go ahead and buy anyway, but if I am forced to sell when I reach the point of getting the 400th chancemaker (let's call this CM400), I will only reap a maximum of 85% of the purchase price, so it's better to make sure I will have enough.

    How to determine this? My reasoning: calculate how long it will take to reach 21.5 duo at the current production rate. (Don't forget to include what is being generated by wrinklers.) Now estimate how long you will take to reach CM400 by casting SE. If the second time is longer than the first, this means you will reach CM400 with cookies to spare, so in that case you may as well spend cookies now on increased production; otherwise you should spend nothing now, as you will arrive with a shortfall.

    Example: I have 393 AM condensers, 380 prism and 359 chancemakers. If I stop buying now I need to cast SE 68 times to reach CM400; if I cast it 8 times per day with a failure rate of 15% this will take about 10 days. (The estimate of frequency of casting SE will vary according to how you play and can only be very rough.) At current production rates however it will take me about 50 days to reach the required 21.5 duodec cookies. I won't have enough in 10 days; I should have stopped spending some time ago, but I need to stop buying now and just wait, or maybe go to active play and score some cookies by other means, which will change the numbers in my favour.
  • dparejadpareja Member Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Immediately sell back the building you just got from SE a few times. That will build your bank quickly.
  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Member Posts: 779 ✭✭✭
    dpareja said:

    Immediately sell back the building you just got from SE a few times. That will build your bank quickly.

    I know I can do that. I think you missed the entire point of my post, which is to avoid getting into that situation in the first place. By planning in advance, one should be able to avoid buying buildings only to be forced to sell them later with a return of only 85% at best.

    Also I should have said that the situation described in my above post is just a hypothetical example. In fact my CpS is quite a bit larger than what I suggested, and I won't need to stop buying buildings for some time yet.
  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Member Posts: 779 ✭✭✭
    In the new version (2.0102) of the live game, I have just had Spontaneous Edifice backfire FOUR times in a row. That must be some sort of record?

    Not happy.
  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Member Posts: 779 ✭✭✭
    Now 5 times. I have not had a successful SE since upgrading from 2.01 to 2.0102. Next time I am going to try "save-scumming", to satisfy myself that there is not some kind of bug.
  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Member Posts: 779 ✭✭✭
    edited April 19
    I got no fewer than 7 backfires in a row. The 8th succeeded. I cast comparatively cheap spells to find out how many backfires I would get, the did the "save scum" thing to cast SE successfully. I don't normally cheat in this way, but I was honestly worried that the spell failure/success random generator might have somehow got stuck in a loop with the latest upgrade.

    Has anyone else had seven failures in a row? The chances of that happening on any given run of seven are about one in 600,000.
  • dr_flashdr_flash Member Posts: 117 ✭✭
    edited April 19
    several backfires indicate your seed is broken. There's a seed that determines whether the next spell will backfire or not. Ascend to fix it.
  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Member Posts: 779 ✭✭✭
    dr_flash said:

    several backfires indicate your seed is broken. There's a seed that determines whether the next spell will backfire or not. Ascend to fix it.

    Is that the only way to fix it? Ascending at that point would have wasted an awful lot of time (about 5 days).
  • ViniVini Member Posts: 3,540 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is that the only way to fix it? Ascending at that point would have wasted an awful lot of time (about 5 days).

    Well, if you don't mind cheating, there's this script.

  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Member Posts: 779 ✭✭✭
    Well I seem to have broken out of the loop so I don't need to use that script now. Looking at that script, though, I don't think it really addresses the problem. I am happy to take my chances of a backfire if the die is fair.

    It can't be that hard to generate a sequence that would for all intents and purposes be random, and would not break. The time-honoured (pun intended) method is to somehow incorporate the current time, down to the accuracy of the computer's clock, into the random number generator.
  • SwankSwank Member Posts: 7
    "There are no buildings to improve" is really annoying when you still have buildings not yet at the 400 mark. Getting tired of having 396 chancemakers only to have to sell and win a prism when I'm so close to the juicy payday of selling the last chancemaker. Boy is my life rough :-p
  • adam_antichristadam_antichrist Member Posts: 531 ✭✭✭
    Swank said:

    "There are no buildings to improve" is really annoying when you still have buildings not yet at the 400 mark. Getting tired of having 396 chancemakers only to have to sell and win a prism when I'm so close to the juicy payday of selling the last chancemaker. Boy is my life rough :-p

    Just sell the chancemaker. Get a cookies + prestige boost, and you get it straight back with SE.


  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Member Posts: 779 ✭✭✭

    Swank said:

    "There are no buildings to improve" is really annoying when you still have buildings not yet at the 400 mark. Getting tired of having 396 chancemakers only to have to sell and win a prism when I'm so close to the juicy payday of selling the last chancemaker. Boy is my life rough :-p

    Just sell the chancemaker. Get a cookies + prestige boost, and you get it straight back with SE.

    Yes. And then learn from the experience and STOP buying buildings - unless you calculate that you will have enough cookies in the bank to keep casting SE without having to sell stuff. As I have outlined above.
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