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The Off Topic section is not meant for discussing Cookie Clicker.

Has the question of best building distribution been resolved?

JezDavisJezDavis Member Posts: 160 ✭✭
Okay, so I've just reincarnated and at the end of the last run I had the following

Cursors 500
Grandmas 580
Farms 500
Mines 500
Factories 500
Banks 500
Temples 490
Wizard towers 471
Shipments 440
Alchemy labs 420
Portals 410
Time machines 390
Antimatter condensers 390
Prisms 370
Chancemakers 350

I know people have been posting what their spreadsheets return as the ideal distributions for a given number of Chancemakers (usually 350) but I'd like to know if there's a ratio involved that would make the calculation easier for any given number of, well, anything.

For example, if memory serves one forum member posted that their spreadsheet suggested 372 Prisms for 350 Chancemakers - that's a ratio of 1.063 : 1

If I increased my Chancemakers to 360, should I therefore be looking at 382/383 Prisms?

Comments

  • GouchnoxGouchnox Member, Friendly, Cool, Conversationalist Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    image image

    It's simple
    make them completely OCD
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  • JezDavisJezDavis Member Posts: 160 ✭✭
    I used to, but after two years the need for optimisation occludes the need for a pretty distribution.
  • GouchnoxGouchnox Member, Friendly, Cool, Conversationalist Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 26
    Jez said:

    I used to, but after two years the need for optimisation occludes the need for a pretty distribution.

    Looking at op, the 471 wizard towers are destroying my brain
    Looking at my buildings, the 390 time machines are already bothering me pretty much so yeah, pretty numbers completely overshadows efficient numbers for me
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  • JezDavisJezDavis Member Posts: 160 ✭✭
    Yeah, it looks mental certainly. Are you aware that the mana increases every time Wizard towers end in a '1'?
  • GouchnoxGouchnox Member, Friendly, Cool, Conversationalist Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Jez said:

    Yeah, it looks mental certainly. Are you aware that the mana increases every time Wizard towers end in a '1'?

    no it doesn't?
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  • JezDavisJezDavis Member Posts: 160 ✭✭
    edited August 26
    Interesting.

    I read a thread a while back that demonstrated that was the case. I tried it and it was indeed true. I tried it again just now and it's increasing every time the total ends in a six.

    So it seems the mana increases every 10, but on whatever digit satisfies a synergistic relationship with other buildings.

    Does that sound plausible to you?
  • GouchnoxGouchnox Member, Friendly, Cool, Conversationalist Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Jez said:

    Interesting.

    I read a thread a while back that demonstrated that was the case. I tried it and it was indeed true. I tried it again just now and it's increasing every time the total ends in a six.

    So it seems the mana increases every 10, but on whatever digit satisfies a synergistic relationship with other buildings.

    Does that sound plausible to you?

    Both my saves will increase their mana after buying 5 towers
    I don't know how this works, but yeah, maybe something tied to your overall amount of buildings, synergies, or just plain logarithmic progression
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  • dparejadpareja Member Posts: 222 ✭✭✭
    I realized my old formulae were laughably wrong, and I'm working on finding optimal distributions for 2.0042.
  • JezDavisJezDavis Member Posts: 160 ✭✭
    dpareja said:

    I realized my old formulae were laughably wrong, and I'm working on finding optimal distributions for 2.0042.


    Ratio-based or working to a standard reference, e.g. 350 Chancemakers?
  • dparejadpareja Member Posts: 222 ✭✭✭
    Going building-by-building and buying whichever is the best buy at the time. Upgrades I'm not going into that deeply; I buy an upgrade when it's cheaper (in absolute terms) than the next building. (I may do a more detailed analysis in which I also buy upgrades depending on replacement time, but for now I'm not doing that; I'm not going to come up with the optimal distribution until I've bought all the asymmetrical upgrades, anyway. I'm doing a tracked run, so you can see the order in which I bought everything. I'll put it up here when it's done.)
  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Member Posts: 656 ✭✭✭
    I calculate the time costs of upgrades in my spreadsheet the same way I calculate the time costs of buildings: by using the cost of the building/object and comparing it with the increase in CpS that will result from acquiring it. Most of the time, at least in the middle and late game, that seems to result in recommending that the upgrade be purchased as soon as it is unlocked and affordable; if not affordable, it's best to wait until it is, rather than spending the cookies on something else.

    There are exceptions, and towards the end of the run it's often necessary to decide whether to end the run first rather than hang on in the hope of getting that big upgrade; if so, the cookies may as well be spent on less expensive things like more buildings.

    Re buildings: once the distribution is "balanced", meaning the time cost is roughly the same for each one, then the optimum buying strategy results in buying approximately the same number of buildings at a time, leaving the difference in the numbers of adjacent buildings the same. It's definitely not about maintaining the same ratio. I say "approximately" because the differences seem to get larger as the game progresses. I think this is due to synergy effects.

    Early in the game, after buying a building upgrade, which doubles the CpS of a building, rebalance is achieved by buying about five more of that building. This effect is less apparent in the later stages when synergies are operational, because each new copy of a building affects the production from other buildings as well.
  • dparejadpareja Member Posts: 222 ✭✭✭
    Yes, that's how I planned to compute those time costs. It's just a matter of getting my formulae right (and I know I royally screwed those up before), and unlike with buildings, unless I go into debug mode, I can't sell back upgrades for double-checking. (I can repeatedly import and export saves, but that's frankly much more annoying.)

    So as I said, I'll probably do another tracked run where I also track upgrades and buy them as appropriate. And I definitely know how doublers affect buildings--early game, where log 2, base 1.15, is roughly 5, and late game, where synergies cause wild and wacky things.
  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Member Posts: 656 ✭✭✭
    edited August 28
    With many of the upgrades it's simple to calculate their effect on CpS. Cookie upgrades simply increase total CpS by a fixed percentage. Building upgrades double the CpS of that building so they are easiily got by looking at the current production from that building. Kittens are much more complex, but they provide such a big boost that basically you should buy a kitten as soon as you can afford it. Same with synergies. The effect of adding a new synergy is very messy to calculate, but once again it seems to turn out that a synergy is always the best buy as soon as it's affordable.
    Post edited by bob_32_116 on
  • dparejadpareja Member Posts: 222 ✭✭✭
    I don't think kittens are that messy, since they're basically just a big cookie that depends on your achievements.

    Synergies are a matter of cross-multiplying one building's total by another building's amount, scaled appropriately.

    One Mind is the tricky one, I think; its formula gave me the most trouble in finding the deltas.
  • dparejadpareja Member Posts: 222 ✭✭✭
    Okay, I've got some distributions (on what I think are the correct formulae)...

    In each of these distributions, the best purchase is a Chancemaker.

    With One Mind/Exotic Nuts, from Cursors to Chancemakers:

    508, 532, 490, 488, 471, 453, 436, 407, 384, 376, 351, 337, 332, 307, 300

    558, 583, 541, 539, 522, 505, 487, 458, 437, 428, 401, 387, 383, 357, 350

    With Communal Brainsweep/Arcane Sugar:

    508, 532, 490, 488, 471, 453, 436, 407, 384, 376, 351, 337, 332, 307, 300

    558, 583, 541, 539, 522, 505, 487, 458, 437, 428, 401, 387, 383, 357, 350

    With Elder Pact:

    508, 532, 490, 488, 471, 453, 436, 407, 384, 376, 351, 337, 332, 307, 300

    558, 583, 541, 539, 522, 505, 487, 458, 437, 428, 401, 387, 383, 357, 350

    In other words, which stage of the Grandmapocalypse you're in (though I haven't measured this for pre-One Mind) doesn't matter for the building distribution (except maybe for slight changes in the purchasing order).
  • JezDavisJezDavis Member Posts: 160 ✭✭
    Nice Work.

    I have 360 Chancemakers.

    Thoughts?
  • dparejadpareja Member Posts: 222 ✭✭✭
    Add 10 to each of the distribution and adjust as necessary...?
  • dparejadpareja Member Posts: 222 ✭✭✭
    edited September 22
    For 360 in One Mind:

    568, 593, 551, 549, 532, 515, 498, 469, 447, 438, 412, 397, 393, 367, 360

    For 370:

    578, 603, 562, 559, 543, 525, 508, 479, 458, 448, 422, 407, 403, 377, 370
  • JezDavisJezDavis Member Posts: 160 ✭✭
    Cool. Interestingly though, now that everything apart from Prisms and Chancemakers are at 400 or more I'm just using Spontaneous Edifice 10-12 times per day to bring those last two up to 400 for free.
  • dparejadpareja Member Posts: 222 ✭✭✭
    For 390 (I forgot to write down 380):

    597, 624, 582, 579, 563, 546, 528, 499, 478, 469, 442, 428, 423, 397, 390
  • dparejadpareja Member Posts: 222 ✭✭✭
    edited October 8
    And I finally got to what I think is the optimal distribution for 400 Chancemakers, by grinding cookies until I got enough to buy all the buildings necessary. (By which I actually mean I savescummed Click Frenzy on Force the Hand of Fate in order to use it and a Godzamok boost whenever I got a Frenzy/Building boost or Frenzy/Elder Frenzy--Elder Frenzy on its own doesn't last long enough to make it on the whole better than a Frenzy/Building boost. This, incidentally, is why I use Radiant Appetite/Breath of Milk on Krumblor, rather than Radiant Appetite/Dragonflight. You can't get Dragonflight off Force the Hand of Fate at all, and if you have that aura set, you can't get Click Frenzy.)

    I'm not going to go any further--though I have the cookies to go to 401 CMs, because my final big boost was Frenzy/Elder Frenzy/Click Frenzy with enough cookies to hit the Golden Switch--but what I'm going to do now is switch Breath of Milk for Earth Shatterer and start oscillating between 399 and 400 CMs with Spontaneous Edifice, which will get me more regular prestige gains (eventually, via the Chocolate egg) than waiting for the Frenzy stack.

    So, at 400 Chancemakers, in One Mind/Exotic Nuts, with Radiant Appetite/Breath of Milk, with all buildings at the same level (currently I've got all mine at level 3--futureproofing against later minigames that depend on levels), with all asymmetric upgrades except the later Grandmapocalypse upgrades purchased, as near as I can tell the optimal distribution is, in order from Cursors to Chancemakers:

    607, 634, 592, 589, 573, 556, 539, 509, 489, 479, 452, 438, 433, 407, 400

    If you decided to go further, the best purchase would be a Chancemaker.

    Getting to this distribution, with all discounts (including Faberge egg) purchased, costs about 1.048 tredecillion cookies. (Currently in my run I have 1.305 tredecillion, of which I got 1.3 tredecillion from manual clicking, thanks to the aforementioned savescumming.)
  • brimbrim Member Posts: 87 ✭✭
    dpareja said:

    You can't get Dragonflight off Force the Hand of Fate at all, and if you have that aura set, you can't get Click Frenzy

    Dragonflight aura does not stop Click Frenzy.
  • JezDavisJezDavis Member Posts: 160 ✭✭
    edited October 25
    dpareja said:

    but what I'm going to do now is switch Breath of Milk for Earth Shatterer and start oscillating between 399 and 400 CMs with Spontaneous Edifice, which will get me more regular prestige gains (eventually, via the Chocolate egg) than waiting for the Frenzy stack.

    Interesting, I hadn't thought of switching to Earth Shatterer for the remainder of the run. I just gave it a try and it's a significant drop in CPS (1.4Dec down to 972Non) but of course when using the Sell/Sp. Ed. alternating switch the gains are so huge that the cookies made through CPS become pretty much negligible anyway in comparison. The 70% increase in return on selling that Ea. Sh. gives is immense.

    Cheers, I'll switch first thing in the morning!

  • dparejadpareja Member Posts: 222 ✭✭✭
    brim said:

    dpareja said:

    You can't get Dragonflight off Force the Hand of Fate at all, and if you have that aura set, you can't get Click Frenzy

    Dragonflight aura does not stop Click Frenzy.
    Clarification: You can't get Click Frenzy from Force the Hand of Fate if Dragonflight is set.
  • CreaphisCreaphis Member Posts: 9
    JezDavis said:

    dpareja said:

    but what I'm going to do now is switch Breath of Milk for Earth Shatterer and start oscillating between 399 and 400 CMs with Spontaneous Edifice, which will get me more regular prestige gains (eventually, via the Chocolate egg) than waiting for the Frenzy stack.

    Interesting, I hadn't thought of switching to Earth Shatterer for the remainder of the run...

    On the subject of fiddly optimizations, if your long-term game plan is to repeatedly sell Chancemaker #400 for cookies, you can actually slightly increase your payout by avoiding upgrades that make buildings cheaper. When your buildings are more expensive their sale price also rises. Those upgrades are Season Savings, Santa's Dominion, Faberge Egg, and the prestige upgrade "Divine Discount." Santa's Dominion is probably still worth buying for its other buffs and you can't un-buy Divine Discount without wiping your save, but if you skip Season Savings and Faberge Egg you can increase your Spontaneous Edifice CPS by around 2%. Woo!
  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Member Posts: 656 ✭✭✭
    Creaphis said:

    but if you skip Season Savings and Faberge Egg you can increase your Spontaneous Edifice CPS by around 2%. Woo!

    That's true, but if you don't have those two upgrades it will take you longer to get to 400 buildings in the first place. Whether this disadvantage negates the advantage of getting more from reselling them is something that is not immediately clear to me. My guess is that if most of the run is spent getting to the 400 chancemaker stage then it would not be worth it, but if you get to that stage well before the end of the run, say about halfway through, then it might be.

  • dparejadpareja Member Posts: 222 ✭✭✭
    Right now I'm over 20 billion prestige, so I've decided to go full idle mode.

    Golden Switch on, Elder Pact, Radiant Appetite/Breath of Milk, Mokalsium/Holobore/Jeremy.

    I would have set Rigidel in Diamond except that I'm sticking to the ideal distribution for 400 CM which gives 7,697 buildings.

    The reason I went full Elder Pact is because it gives the highest chance of special lumps (around 1 in 6), because it has the highest chance of meaty lumps, which, since you can save-scum manual harvests, means it has the highest chance of 2 lumps in a harvest. And sugar lump achievements are the only ones I have left to obtain.

    Hopefully we'll get a new version soon; until then, I'm sticking with this and trying out IGM.
  • JezDavisJezDavis Member Posts: 160 ✭✭
    Nice. I'm just over 15 billion prestige so that sounds like a good approach. I've got the same set-up as you without having gone Elder Pact so I might have to give that a go over the next week or so. Although, unless a huge combo arrives the benefits from active play aren't much once you've got a tredecilliion or so in the bank but as you say, it's all about the sugar lumps at the moment.

    Having said all that, I do now switch Breath of Milk for Earth Shatterer once I'm on the 400CM/Sp.Ed. cycle because Earth Shatter results in 70% more prestige from each switch.
  • dparejadpareja Member Posts: 222 ✭✭✭
    I should note that I don't have the game open (to reduce CPU load). That's why I've got Breath of Milk over Earth Shatterer.
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