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The Off Topic section is not meant for discussing Cookie Clicker.

Late-game building distribution as of v2.0041

ChocolateMachineChocolateMachine Member Posts: 102 ✭✭
There's a table on the wiki (http://cookieclicker.wikia.com/wiki/Building) that shows what someone has calculated as the best numbers of buildings to have. I guess the idea is that the payback time (ratio of price to CpS gain) should be about the same for all the buildings. This was probably made for v2 and accurate for v2.002 and v2.0034.

But the current beta (v2.0041) has a new building with a very powerful synergy, which changes things.

I've tried to find out the same kind of information for the beta, by measuring CpS before and after buying each building and comparing to the price. This is for late game, with all building upgrades and synergies purchased, as well as heavenly upgrades like starter kit and starter kitchen. Here's a rough building distribution that puts payback times within about 15% of each other.

500 cursors
531 grandmas
482 farms
446 mines
450 factories
428 banks
439 temples
419 wizard towers
373 shipments
350 alchemy labs
362 portals
343 time machines
303 antimatter condensers
318 prisms
300 chancemakers

I also learned that the only way to accurately measure CpS differences is to turn off short numbers and write down a whole bunch of digits, and also not have century egg. Seriously, the change in ten seconds from century egg is comparable to buying one cursor or mine.

Comments

  • JezDavisJezDavis Member Posts: 153 ✭✭
    Are these just ratios though? As in, at present I have 330 Chancemakers, so should I be looking to multiply by 1.06 (i.e. 318/300) to inform me how many Prisms I should have? (349.8 - I currently have 350!)
  • dparejadpareja Member Posts: 199 ✭✭✭
    edited August 4
    Looking only at how much buying another building will add to CpS from that building alone (that is, not accounting for synergies, Grandma boosts, or Cursor boosts, because I'm not about to spend that much time on this), I've gotten this distribution at the moment, being in One Mind:

    564 Cursors
    518 Grandmas
    510 Farms
    502 Mines
    494 Factories
    468 Banks
    460 Temples
    434 Wizard towers
    408 Shipments
    400 Alchemy labs
    395 Portals
    389 Time machines
    365 Antimatter condensers
    381 Prisms
    348 Chancemakers

    I think Antimatter condensers desperately need a 5% synergy.

    EDIT: I'm also levelling up buildings as evenly as possible, so that in future minigames I'll have my buildings at as high a level as I can make them in case those minigames get better as their buildings' levels increase. With that distribution, I had Cursors, Farms, Wizard towers, Alchemy labs, Portals, Time machines, and Prisms at level 2, and the other buildings at level 1.
  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Member Posts: 651 ✭✭✭
    I'll have a play around with my spreadsheet tomorrow and give my findings.
    At the moment I tend to think Jez's configuration looks more believable than CM's, which I think has too many Grandmas. After getting all the upgrades, I find I consistently have about 30 more cursors than grandmas, and I don't think the new beta upgrades will alter that.
  • JezDavisJezDavis Member Posts: 153 ✭✭
    edited August 4
    Gotta say I never tend to take cursors above 500. Whenever I do, so little happens to CPS that I've just learned to concentrate elsewhere. Right now I've got 500 Cursors and 540 Grandmas. The big push now is to see if it's worth hanging on this ascension to get to 350 Chancemakers, or just wait until I've got 400 million HC (tomorrow morning) and reincarnate to get the first two sugar lump Prestige Upgrades. But with the Prestige going up at the rate it is, I'm not sure whether I can be bothered to reincarnate just yet or just let it run its course.
  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Member Posts: 651 ✭✭✭
    My latest reincarnation in the beta game, which was my first since the big upgrade, caused CpS to increase by a fact or of approximately 500, due to the increased prestige. Had I ascended a couple of days earlier, it would have only increased by 8 or so. I'd have to see your stats to know whether ascending right now is a good plan, but I wouldn't be in any hurry.
  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Member Posts: 651 ✭✭✭
    edited August 5
    According to my spreadsheet calculations, this is the best balanced configuration with 300 chancemakers.

    No. Producer
    516 Cursor
    486 Grandma
    501 Farm
    463 Mine
    468 Factory
    453 Bank
    457 Temple
    436 Wizard tower
    398 Shipment
    375 Alchemy lab
    379 Portal
    361 Time machine
    328 Antimatter Condenser
    335 Prism
    300 Chancemaker

    This is with all upgrades purchased, including all synergies. Also all buildings are at the same level (though this only makes a difference of 1% per level).

    I also did it for 350 chancemakers:

    No. Producer
    566 Cursor
    536 Grandma
    553 Farm
    516 Mine
    521 Factory
    507 Bank
    509 Temple
    489 Wizard tower
    451 Shipment
    428 Alchemy lab
    432 Portal
    414 Time machine
    381 Antimatter Condenser
    387 Prism
    350 Chancemaker

    Post edited by bob_32_116 on
  • dparejadpareja Member Posts: 199 ✭✭✭
    I tried to compute how much buying a building would add to CpS (between synergies, Grandma types, and Fingers; I am in One Mind, and have bought all doubler upgrades, by buying up to the required threshold and then selling back as necessary to rebalance), and then used that to determine a building distribution. Notably, Cursors are very low, since they boost nothing else, while Grandmas are very high because they boost everything else.

    446 Cursors
    528 Grandmas
    479 Farms
    439 Mines
    446 Factories
    424 Banks
    435 Temples
    415 Wizard towers
    368 Shipments
    343 Alchemy labs
    357 Portals
    338 Time machines
    276 Antimatter condensers
    291 Prisms
    284 Chancemakers

    Right now, Cursors, Farms, Wizard towers, Alchemy labs, Portals, Time machines, Antimatter condensers, and Prisms are Level 2; the rest are Level 1. I started a new run to get these numbers, so I don't yet have every upgrade, but the ones I don't have either don't affect CpS (like egg) or affect it uniformly and thus don't affect the distribution (like the Halloween cookies).
  • ChocolateMachineChocolateMachine Member Posts: 102 ✭✭
    Jez said:

    Are these just ratios though?

    No, probably it's best to keep the same differences, so once you're at an optimal distribution, buy one of each building at a time. Keeping the same differences in building numbers leads to the same ratios in building prices.

    It's interesting that we're all getting such different results. I say there should be 18 more prisms than chancemakers, dpareja says 33, bob says 35 or 37, dpareja says 7 counting synergies.

    I guess if we really care, we could have some formula or method that should be repeatable.
  • JezDavisJezDavis Member Posts: 153 ✭✭
    I suspect that may be what Bob's done.
  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Member Posts: 651 ✭✭✭
    edited August 5
    Jez said:

    I suspect that may be what Bob's done.

    Precisely. But it was not a simple exercise, I made mistakes more than once so there is no guarantee that it's totally correct now. All I can say is that when I check my predicted CpS against the actual displayed on the screen, the two usually match to within less than 1%. I used to find they matched exactly, and I am not sure why they don't now, but I suspect some of the game parameters have been modified slightly since I set it up.

    The thing I find interesting is the different conclusions we come to regarding cursors and grandmas. In the early stages of a run, I find the optimum total for cursors is a few less than for grandmas. once I get all the enhanced finger upgrades, though, their value goes way up, making them much more worthwhile. As for grandmas, their relative importance seems to slowly decline as the total number of buildings rises. I think this is due to the various synergies. The synergies are also the reason why my numbers do not simply decrease uniformly as you read down the list. One party to a synergy gains 5% for each building of the other party; when the numbers are in the hundreds, this 5% totally dominates the production, and it means that the output from two buildings that are connected by a synergy is proportional to the PRODUCT of the numbers of the two types.

    The Grandma Types, of course, are also synergies by another name, but they are only one way; they benefit other buildings rather than grandmas, and the chief beneficiaries are farms.
  • ChocolateMachineChocolateMachine Member Posts: 102 ✭✭
    The cursor upgrades are basically one-directional synergies too, just the other direction and without regard to the building type. The elder battalion dragon aura is also like that.

    Ignoring synergies, grandma types and cursor upgrades would make this way simpler, of course. But it would also make it totally wrong, since synergies have such a huge effect. You also can't just go by the displayed partial CpS for each building.

    I thought I could skip all this calculation and do it sort of experimentally by reading the CpS gains. We don't seem to be getting the same answer though so maybe I'm doing something wrong. Am I right that we want payback times to be within 15% of each other?
  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Member Posts: 651 ✭✭✭

    Am I right that we want payback times to be within 15% of each other?

    We want to get the situation that would result if you bought the item with the quickest payback time at every point in the game. I believe that amounts to the same thing, or nearly so.

    For example in calculating that first table above, I set chancemakers to 300 and everything else to zero, then simulated buying buildings until chancemakers once again became the best buy.
  • dparejadpareja Member Posts: 199 ✭✭✭
    edited August 6
    I very well may have my formulae wrong in my spreadsheet--plus, I don't build it from scratch the way bob does, apparently. I just try to calculate how much buying any one building will add given the production amounts given by the game.

    Anyway, here's my current distribution (same levels as before; omitting building names, they just go in order from Cursors to Chancemakers): 489, 573, 524, 484, 491, 468, 480, 460, 413, 388, 402, 383, 321, 334, 329.

    The vast majority of the generation is Prisms, and most of the rest is Chancemakers. (Then Time machines, then Antimatter condensers.) All the other buildings are basically just there to boost those (directly or indirectly; for instance, Mines boost Wizard towers, Shipments, and Alchemy labs, but that then incentivises buying things that also boost those buildings, like Time machines, Antimatter condensers, and Prisms, since you get a bigger payoff from those synergy boots since those middle buildings are producing more).

    EDIT: A small buying spree (because Force the Hand of Fate and Godzamok are really good for fast cookie production) sees the above distribution change by adding 3 Cursors and 4 of every other building. Note that what I do is try to reach a point where Chancemakers are my best buy, but nothing else is more than 15% back of them. (Or, rather, the logarithm, base 1.15, of the ratio of a building's additional production to a Chancemaker's additional production should be between -1 and 0, except obviously for Chancemakers which would be 0.)

    EDIT #2: Another Godzamok-FtHoF buying spree saw me stabilize at this distribution: 510, 596, 547, 507, 513, 491, 503, 483, 436, 410, 425, 406, 345, 356, 352--which, if you're a Rigidel fan, gives you 6,880 buildings. What I've observed is that thanks to the Synergies and Grandma types, optimization here is really all about the second-order effects. Hence why I have (relatively) few Cursors--they induce no second-order effects. (And the second-order effect affecting them, the Fingers, don't do much, really.) Grandmas, on the other hand, have so many second-order effects that they give the single biggest return on buying a single building (and so of course are my most expensive). Antimatter condensers' second-order effects are comparatively weak, which is why I have so few of them--Prisms give so much that just that Synergy alone makes Chancemakers better than ACs.
    Post edited by dpareja on
  • adam_antichristadam_antichrist Member Posts: 434 ✭✭✭
    What I've found interesting is how differently the building CPSs are now. I calculate CPS by subtracting new CPS from old CPS after bying a building, like what @ChocolateMachine described in the OP. Here is the most recent spread from v2.0034 (with CPS in sext/sec):





    ...and here is from v2.0041 (CPS in sept/sec)




    It's weird how some of the buildings have become so close in CPS (and hence, cost).

  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Member Posts: 651 ✭✭✭
    edited August 11
    (deleted)
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