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Best pantheon configuration

bob_32_116bob_32_116 Posts: 516Member ✭✭✭
edited July 16 in General Discussion
N.B. This is for idle play and refers only to obtaining the best CpS boost, it is not concerned with decrease in number of golden cookies or the like.

In my opinion, based on tinkering with my spreadsheet and seeing the resultant change in CpS, the best arrangement is:

Diamond slot: Mokalsium
Ruby slot: Holobore
Jade slot: Jeremy

This gives a 30% improvement over the arrangement I have at present, which is Holobore/Jeremy/Mokalsium. Hence I intend to switch them around as soon as I have enough lumps.

It's possible the best arrangement may depend on what you own, specifically on how much milk and how many kittens. Obviously the bigger the boost you are getting from milk, the more attractive this makes the Mokalsium spirit. It may be that in the early stages of the game a different arrangement may be better. Some time when I have a dull moment I'll play with the numbers and report back.

Also in the beta version, note that Jeremy in the Ruby slot gives a 5% boost, NOT 6% as stated by the documentation. I am now 99.99% sure of this. Moreover the multiplier, as displayed on the Stats screen, does not include this 5%, though it does include the 15% from Holobore. I have not yet been able to check whether this is fixed in the new live version.
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Comments

  • ¤RunninginReverse¤¤RunninginReverse¤ Posts: 14,844Member, Friendly ✭✭✭✭✭
    Been 1 or 2 fucking days of the update being live and you're already trying to find the #1 best configuration.
    Current status: Could be much better, really.
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  • ViniVini Posts: 2,531Member ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's Bob for you. I think I'll get back to CC just to test this out.

  • JezJez Posts: 85Member ✭✭
    edited July 16

    Been 1 or 2 fucking days of the update being live and you're already trying to find the #1 best configuration.


    Of course. The game is just a maths problem. There's no fun if you don't try to solve it.
  • ViniVini Posts: 2,531Member ✭✭✭✭✭
    Okay, I think I understand enough of this update to throw my two cents.

    Because of Holobore's condition, and because I know I'm going to click a GC sooner or later, I'm turning the Golden Switch on. "Permanently".

    Now, I usually only pop my Wrinklers before closing the game, and before I had stopped playing, I'd usually leave it running for 13-18 hours, two or three times a week. I might get back to it, and most likely will be playing like that.

    Question is, is Skruuia worth it? Should I replace Jeremy with the scorn Beholder?

  • ChocolateMachineChocolateMachine Posts: 42Member ✭✭
    I've been putting Skruuia in the jade slot. I think a 5% wrinkler bonus is almost as good as a 5% CpS bonus, if you have ten or twelve wrinklers. It's worded slightly differently (digest, regurgitate, explode into) but it seems to be the same as sacrilegious corruption and wrinklerspawn.

    Also in the beta version, note that Jeremy in the Ruby slot gives a 5% boost, NOT 6% as stated by the documentation. I am now 99.99% sure of this. Moreover the multiplier, as displayed on the Stats screen, does not include this 5%, though it does include the 15% from Holobore. I have not yet been able to check whether this is fixed in the new live version.

    Well, that makes sense. The 5% instead of 6% does look like a mistake, but the multiplier shouldn't include this 5%. The way I see it, Jeremy is a boost to all the individual buildings, before their production gets multiplied by the multiplier. I guess it's an unimportant distinction, except that it doesn't affect "egg".

    Also, Cyclius in the jade slot is kind of cool. If you swap it twice a day to give only a positive effect, it's an average of +9.55%. I'll leave it as an exercise to figure out the best time of day to replace it with something else. This kind of changes the meaning of idle play though.
  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Posts: 516Member ✭✭✭


    Also, Cyclius in the jade slot is kind of cool. If you swap it twice a day to give only a positive effect, it's an average of +9.55%. I'll leave it as an exercise to figure out the best time of day to replace it with something else. This kind of changes the meaning of idle play though.

    I assume your figure of 9.55% is based on the assumption that the variation is sinusoidal, which seems a fair assumption though we don't know if it's correct.

    If that's the case, it would be fairly simple to figure out when to swap Cyclius for Holobore or Jeremy, a bit messier for Mokalsium. The only problem is, how de we know what phase of the cycle Cyclius is at? Does it tell you what time it reaches its maximum when it's in the slot? Or would you just have to figure it out by observing its behaviour?
  • ChocolateMachineChocolateMachine Posts: 42Member ✭✭
    It displays the current bonus and you can watch it change. I haven't looked at the code for this but it seems sinusoidal and the peak and zeros are at the top of the hour. Maybe it depends on your timezone.

    So yeah, it wouldn't be too hard. Something like 24/2π • arcsin(5%/15%) for Holobore, and a little less for Skruuia but I can never remember exactly how wrinklers work.
  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Posts: 516Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 17
    I think with the Pantheon and possibly the Grimoire I'll worry a little less about maximising the cookie production and just try everything once. I probably should do that with the auras as well, but with the possible exception of Dragonflight the descriptions don't suggest they would add that much interest to the game play, ot enough to make it worth sacrificing a prism.

    Anyway, for your amusement and edification I generated a graph that shows the effect of Mokalsium in various slots, for milk % ranging from 0 to 1000%. It wasn't that difficult. In this particular example there are seven kittens (no experts or Angels), and both Breath of milk and Santa's milk are active.





  • jurejure Posts: 6Member
    edited July 18
    Right now I'm running Mokalsium - Skruuia - Holobore. Full idle mode.
    Also worth noting - be sure to check whether the spirit is actually active, it takes 2 slot-ins for me to activate the spirit (to a point, where it shows highlighted effects) and even more importantly importing a save deactivates spirits.
  • adam_antichristadam_antichrist Posts: 374Member ✭✭✭
    I didn't read the fine print and got Holobored by clicking a GC TWICE before I learned that clicking a GC will punt Holobore out of the slot and smash your moves back to zero. Still got another 5 and a half hours before I can put the fucker back into the ruby slot. So Skruuia and Holobore both have to be swapped out when switching to active play.

  • dparejadpareja Posts: 32Member ✭✭
    I keep an active-play pantheon, since I'm active more often than not. I go Godzamok-Selebrak-Rigidel.

    Godzamok allows me to sell all my farms whenever I have a big golden cookie effect (click frenzy especially) and get a huge click boost.

    Selebrak gives a decent CpS boost with minimal drawback--I've got millions of prestige levels so a 50% increase in the price to switch seasons isn't an issue.

    Rigidel doesn't generally do much, since I buy buildings as I can, but hey, if it helps at some point... (and there's no drawback to having him in there).
  • adam_antichristadam_antichrist Posts: 374Member ✭✭✭
    dpareja said:

    I keep an active-play pantheon, since I'm active more often than not. I go Godzamok-Selebrak-Rigidel.

    Godzamok allows me to sell all my farms whenever I have a big golden cookie effect (click frenzy especially) and get a huge click boost.

    So you make more cookies than it costs to buy back all your farms? Why do you choose to sell farms as opposed to cursors which you would presumably have more of?

  • BillaboBillabo Posts: 1,097Member, Friendly, Conversationalist ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 19


    So you make more cookies than it costs to buy back all your farms? Why do you choose to sell farms as opposed to cursors which you would presumably have more of?

    Farms make the least CPS per building when fully upgraded, even less than cursors and grandmas. You can sell them to get the CPC boost with minimal CPS loss.
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  • dparejadpareja Posts: 32Member ✭✭
    Billabo said:


    So you make more cookies than it costs to buy back all your farms? Why do you choose to sell farms as opposed to cursors which you would presumably have more of?

    Farms make the least CPS per building when fully upgraded, even less than cursors and grandmas. You can sell them to get the CPC boost with minimal CPS loss.
    Actually, for me, because of the synergy upgrades, Farms produce significantly more per building than Grandmas (though I'd have to check to account for the Grandma type upgrades), but selling all my Grandmas would end the Grandmapocalypse (I stay at One Mind), which selling my Farms would not.

    And I have way more Cursors than anything else, so buying those back would cost too much.
  • BillaboBillabo Posts: 1,097Member, Friendly, Conversationalist ✭✭✭✭
    dpareja said:


    Actually, for me, because of the synergy upgrades, Farms produce significantly more per building than Grandmas

    I have all of the synergy upgrades and I looked at the "each grandma produces ___" and "each farm produces ___" to see which makes more in my game. Grandmas get synergy with every other building, even without the prestige synergy upgrades, so I'd be surprised to see farms making more unless you're in early game.
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  • dparejadpareja Posts: 32Member ✭✭
    Billabo said:

    dpareja said:


    Actually, for me, because of the synergy upgrades, Farms produce significantly more per building than Grandmas

    I have all of the synergy upgrades and I looked at the "each grandma produces ___" and "each farm produces ___" to see which makes more in my game. Grandmas get synergy with every other building, even without the prestige synergy upgrades, so I'd be surprised to see farms making more unless you're in early game.
    Each of my farms produces, by itself, about ten times what each of my grandmas produces.

    That doesn't factor in the synergies (that boost other buildings) and Grandma types, though.

    Keep in mind that the only thing (when you're not in the final stage of the Grandmapocalypse) that boosts Grandmas is other Grandmas, whereas Farms are boosted not just by Grandmas, but also by Temples, Wizard towers, Portals, and Time machines, to the tune of 5% each.
  • BillaboBillabo Posts: 1,097Member, Friendly, Conversationalist ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 19
    @dpareja could you PM me or post your save code? I'm really curious now. Sorry Bob and readers for taking this thread off-topic...
    dpareja said:


    That doesn't factor in the synergies (that boost other buildings) and Grandma types, though.

    That would be why, then. Do you not buy those? There are 12 Grandma types and each of them doubles the Grandmas' CPS, so that's huge.
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  • dparejadpareja Posts: 32Member ✭✭
    Billabo said:

    @dpareja could you PM me or post your save code? I'm really curious now. Sorry Bob and readers for taking this thread off-topic...

    dpareja said:


    That doesn't factor in the synergies (that boost other buildings) and Grandma types, though.

    That would be why, then. Do you not buy those? There are 12 Grandma types and each of them doubles the Grandmas' CPS, so that's huge.
    I buy all the upgrades, excepting only research upgrades from Communal Brainsweep forward (since I want to stay in the first stage of the Grandmapocalypse) and, of course, the Chocolate Egg (until I'm ready to ascend).

    But I've also got well over 5,700 buildings, so all those synergies add up.
  • BillaboBillabo Posts: 1,097Member, Friendly, Conversationalist ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 19
    dpareja said:


    I buy all the upgrades, excepting only research upgrades from Communal Brainsweep forward (since I want to stay in the first stage of the Grandmapocalypse) and, of course, the Chocolate Egg (until I'm ready to ascend).

    But I've also got well over 5,700 buildings, so all those synergies add up.

    As I'm thinking about it, I guess it is because of the synergies. I was thinking that the grandma types were synergies, but then I read them and saw that it's just a flat doubling effect. So once you get that many buildings, farms overtake grandmas again.

    ALSO I just looked again and I was absolutely wrong. My farms are making more than my grandmas, both per building and total. I must have misread a number or looked at the wrong one. My save file at work currently has grandmas making more than farms, but my home file, which is farther in the game, lines up with what you're saying. My mistake.
    Post edited by Billabo on
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  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Posts: 516Member ✭✭✭
    dpareja said:


    And I have way more Cursors than anything else, so buying those back would cost too much.

    Not necessarily. The cost of replacing ALL your copies of a building can be estimated very accurately by taking the purchase cost of the next building and dividing by 0.15. That is, it's almost independent of how many of the building are involved.

  • adam_antichristadam_antichrist Posts: 374Member ✭✭✭
    My grandmas produce more than 3x more than farms, which are themselves more than 10x better than cursors and mines. I work out building CPS by subtracting the total CPS after buying a building from the CPS before I bought it. Cursors and mines are absolute shit tier, with the next worse being bank worth more than 5x cursors. Since there are so many more cursors (currently 78 more cursors than banks), I think selling them might give a bigger boost.

  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Posts: 516Member ✭✭✭
    Billabo said:

    I was thinking that the grandma types were synergies, but then I read them and saw that it's just a flat doubling effect. So once you get that many buildings, farms overtake grandmas again.

    No, you were right in the first place. Grandma types are indeed synergies, though they are not referred to as such in the game. For example, with farmer grandmas, farm production is increased proportional to the number of grannies. It may well be that grandmas contribute more to the CpS total, due to their indirect influence on other buildings, right up to prisms. Or it may be that they don't. Figuring out which building is contributing the most to your production is a lot more complicated than just looking at the direct production.

    The thing is, it's not all that relevant, because even if you sell at a loss of 50%, you will very quickly be able to buy back all or most of the buildings you sold. The early ones cost next to nothing; most of the cost of replacement comes from the last few that you purchase. You won't lose much production, or lose it for very long. My guess is you're probably best selling your cursors, if that's what you have the most of.
  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Posts: 516Member ✭✭✭
    I just had the "spirit bug". I could not figure out why my CpS was only about 60% of what I figured it should be. I checked the pantheon, and all three slots were occupied - or so it appeared. After scratching my head for 10 minutes I realised that nothing else could cause that big a discrepancy, it HAD to be the pantheon. Sure enough - the spirit icons were shown in the slots, but when I hovered above them, in two of the three cases it said "Drag a spirit into this slot...". I had to drag the spirit out of the slot, then drag it in again. Beware of this bug!
  • adam_antichristadam_antichrist Posts: 374Member ✭✭✭
    So I'm wondering how to work out if skruuia or jeremy is better in the jade slot. Just looking at CPS, I had 10.799 Oct/sec with Moo/Holob/skruia then that went up to 11.123 when I swapped jeremy in. HOWEVER this doesn't factor in the additional 5% the wrinklers are devouring when skruuia is in the jade slot.

    How to work out which is better? And by how, I mean somebody else work it out and tell me the answer.

  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Posts: 516Member ✭✭✭
    ^^ Give me time.
  • ChocolateMachineChocolateMachine Posts: 42Member ✭✭
    edited July 21
    Skruuia only matters when you're popping the wrinklers.

    This is contrary to what I said above but I think it's right. The descriptions use a bunch of different terms (wither, suck, digest, regurgitate, explode into) and there are a bunch of different variable names (cpsSucked, cookiesSucked, wrinklers[i].sucked, toSuck) which don't really help, but as far as I can tell this is how wrinklers work:
    • Each time step, each wrinkler sucks based on the CpS times the percentage of CpS that are being sucked by all wrinklers. This is the part where the more wrinklers you have, the more each one of them sucks. But it doesn't yet incorporate the 1.1x factor or the upgrades.
    • When you pop a wrinkler, it releases the number of cookies it has sucked, times 1.1, times 1.05 if you have Wrinklerspawn, times 1.05 if you have Sacrilegious corruption, times 1.05 or 1.10 or 1.15 if you have Skruuia.
    So I guess the best use of Skruuia is to only slot it when you're about to pop wrinklers, and leave the slot for something else (like Jeremy) otherwise.

    This distinction barely mattered before, since sacrilegious corruption is a heavenly upgrade so it's there the whole time the wrinklers are, and wrinklerspawn is hard to find but cheap so there's no decision about when to buy it.
  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Posts: 516Member ✭✭✭
    ^^ It says "wrinklers digest <15%/10%/5%> more cookies." My interpretation of that description of Skruuia is that the amount hoarded by the wrinklers per second is multiplied by the appropriate factor. That is, the boost applies at those times, and only those times, when Skruuia is active. If you popped the wrinkler one second after placing Skruuia in the slot, the boost would only apply to the production for that one second.

    At least that's how I would interpret it - but whether that's how it actually works remains to be seen.
  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Posts: 516Member ✭✭✭
    I only just realised why that spirit is named Jeremy! Maybe I'm just slow... guess members in certain other countries would have picked it up immediately.
  • ShylightShylight Posts: 6,448Moderator, Friendly, Helpful, Flagger Mod

    ^^ It says "wrinklers digest <15%/10%/5%> more cookies." My interpretation of that description of Skruuia is that the amount hoarded by the wrinklers per second is multiplied by the appropriate factor. That is, the boost applies at those times, and only those times, when Skruuia is active. If you popped the wrinkler one second after placing Skruuia in the slot, the boost would only apply to the production for that one second.

    At least that's how I would interpret it - but whether that's how it actually works remains to be seen.

    That is not at all how it works. Skruuia only applies at the moment you pop your wrinklers, same with Wrinklerspawn for example.
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  • bob_32_116bob_32_116 Posts: 516Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 24
    According to my spreadsheet the best assignment of spirits in slots is:

    Diamond: Mokalsium
    Ruby: Holobore
    Jade: Skruuia

    Skruuia does not offer a huge advantage compared to Jeremy, but every little bit helps.

    This applies to my current game state, so it's possible there may be other situations where a different configuration is best. Obviously Skruuia is of no benefit if you have no wrinklers, but I doubt whether it's worth spending a sugar lump to switch it in and out according to whether or not you have wrinklers. Mokalsium is the only one that could change. As shown in my graph above, there is a big difference in the boost given by Mokalsium according to how much milk you have, and it would also be very dependent on how many kittens.

    Replacing Jeremy by Skruuia in the Jade slot also decreases by about 25% the optimum time a wrinkler should be allowed to survive before popping it.
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